Chatting with Retired Cop/Coroner Buddy, Garry Rodgers

While chatting with my good friend, Garry Rodgers, I invited him to the blog for a Q&A about life, writing, muscle cars, near-death of a popular singer, a venomous spider “incident,” a haunted kitchen, and his new book, From The Shadows. I don’t often interview writers, but Garry is such a fascinating guy. Longtime readers of the blog might be familiar with the name. He’s my retired cop/coroner buddy who often offers real-world experience in the comments. He also has a wicked sense of humor. We had to break the Q&A into two parts to include all the juicy stories.

Sue: Welcome back to Murder Blog, Garry! For those who don’t know you, please tell us a little about your background.

Garry: Thanks for hosting me again, Sue. Thought you might not want me back after what happened last time. 😉 Anyway, I’m a retired homicide cop with a second career as the guy no one wants an appointment with — Doctor Death, the coroner. I’ve also tried my hand at railroading, welding, NHRA drag racing, housebuilding, sniping, commercial boat skippering and marijuana growing. Now, I’m working as a crime writer. I’d have to say this writing gig is the hardest challenge I’ve had so far. At least for making money. 🙂

Sue: Haha. They don’t call us “starving artists” for nothing. That’s quite the resume you’ve got there.

Garry: Yeah. Looks like I’m immensely qualified… or I couldn’t keep a friggin’ job.

Sue: Wait, wait, wait. Back up a sec. You worked as a marijuana grower? What’s that about?

Garry: Yep. I recently helped an ex-cop buddy build a security and safety department for a medicinal cannabis producer. 

Sue: With such an impressive background, what made you want to write? As you know, much like other callings, there’s a definite yearning to write—a mystical pull that stems from deep within us, a desire that cannot be ignored. Its timing, however, varies among writers. Do you remember the “trigger” that first made you say, “I need to write”?

Garry: That’s a really good question, Sue. I had to do a bit of introspection to come up with one answer because there are a bunch of factors that made me want to start writing. I guess the bottom line is that I truly love doing it – writing, that is. I don’t write for money, although the income supplement is kinda nice, and I don’t write for fame or notoriety.

It’s the craft that drives me. You know the sense of satisfaction from creating something and the reward of seeing an idea materialize into something tangible. The first trigger was when I was in my teens and I wrote an article for Hot Rod Magazine that got published. Then I went to the dark side of Hot Rodding and became a cop. It was Joseph Wambaugh who really influenced me, and I knew that in my retirement crime writing would be my final career. Seems to be working out now 🙂

Sue: We’re thankful you picked up the pen. Gotta ask. What was the Hot Rod Magazine article about?

Garry: It was about how important something basic (yet ignored) oil changes are in high performance engines and it delved into the chemical composition of natural and synthetic oils. It stemmed from a 1969 Mustang Mach 1 428 Super Cobrajet I inherited from a friend after he spun the #4 crankshaft main bearing and fucked the engine costing him a lot of money that he didn’t have. This was due to two common problems that were affecting muscle car owners of the time – the failure to change engine oil more frequently than the manufacturer’s specs said and also using the wrong oil composition. It seemed to go over well as it was a practical piece rather than the usual stuff about how to crank out more horsepower.

This article was where I learned how important it was to start something with a story, if possible. I had my mother help me with the article before I submitted it. She was a schoolteacher with a Masters degree in English Literature and a recognized scholar in Thomas Hardy’s work. Mum showed me how to open with telling (showing 😉 ) the story about my friend’s Mustang (which is now a high-value collector’s car). I explained how he neglected to do his maintenance, and his oil research, which got him into a very expensive pickle.

Once I identified a common problem that a lot of hot-rodders got themselves into, I supplied the solution. That was to know your engine, know your oil, and look after them.

This Mustang story has an interesting outcome. His 428 block was severely damaged and beyond my ability to repair but the car body was solid. So, I ripped out the 428 and shoved in a 351 Cleveland from a wrecked ’71 Mustang and sold it. A few years later, I joined the police force and gave all my car parts to my brother before I moved to the west coast. That included all the 428 components. I moved on and never gave hot rodding much of another thought (until 2008 when I got the bug again and bought a new supercharged Shelby which we call Sally).

One day, about 15 years ago, I got a call out of the blue from a guy in Winnipeg, Manitoba. He had my old 1969 Mach 1 with the bastardized 351 under its cowl and he wanted to know what happened to the original engine and parts – he wanted to restore the ‘Stang to original parts matching condition because of the tremendous value those cars now have (probably $80,000+). I told him to call my brother because that’s the last stop I knew for them. It turns out my brother had all the original pieces stashed at the back of his shop since 1978. He gave the guy the pieces for free and the car was restored to original condition, as shown in the photo.

Sue: Wow. Sweet ride! Fascinating story, too.

In your “based on true crime” series, I especially loved In the Attic. The killer was so creepy, and the storyline has never left me. Where did the idea for From the Shadows come from?

Garry: Why, thank ya. Thank ya very much. From The Shadows is based on a true crime investigation I was involved with when I was with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) Serious Crimes Section. Six members of one family—three generations of grandparents, parents, and two preteen girls—vanished on a camping trip. They were brutally killed in a monstrous mass murder and their bodies were hidden.

From The Shadows follows the search for the family, the discovery of their remains, the forensic work involved, and the eventual confession and conviction.

Sue: Is From The Shadows part of series or a standalone?

Garry: It’s book 3 of my “based on true crime” series, but all the books can stand alone. I’ve stumbled on a niche market that seems to be working. I’ve taken real crime stories that I worked and fictionalized them by keeping to the factual storyline. They’re set in current times on Vancouver Island in southern British Columbia at Canada’s west coast.

Told from the point-of-view of an old detective and some of the characters I personally know/knew, I’ve changed minute details like the names of victims and suspect due to privacy issues. And I’ve taken artistic license here and there, too. Y’know, I skipped the boring parts.

Sue: True. No one wants to read long passages of a detective doing paperwork. Tell us about the other books in the series.

Garry: The first in the series is In The Attic. It’s based on the terrifyingly true story of a psychopath who hid in his ex-girlfriend’s attic for two days armed with an ax. He crept down at 3 am and chopped her and her lover to death. That story is told by both the detective and the killer. The second book is Under The Ground. It’s about a real murder case where we used the “Mister Big” undercover sting to have a killer confess and lead us to the body.

BTW, I had lunch with Mr. Big the other day. He says “Hi!”

Sue: Hey, Mr. Big! A while back, Garry guest-posted about the Mr. Big operation, then I interviewed the man himself. It’s a fascinating peek into the life of an undercover cop.

What’s coming next in this series?

Garry: Funny you should ask. I’ve finished the manuscript for Beside The Road. It’s about the most baffling and bizarre homicide I ever worked on. We found this decomposing guy dumped down the bank beside a rural road and used pretty much every investigation aid and technique before we found out who he was and what happened to him. You gotta read the book to find out, but I’ll guarantee you’ll never guess what we found.

Sue: Hmm, I don’t think you told me that story. Will this be a long-standing series?

Garry: I’ll keep writing them for as long as the concept works. I started the manuscript for On The Floor (multiple execution murders in a gun store), and the storylines framed for Below The Deck (contract killing on a boat), Off The Grid (murder in a prepper commune), Behind The Badge (murder involving a police officer), and By The Neck (Munchausen-by-Proxy case), or the title might change to The Mother From Hell.

Sue: Wow. Sounds awesome. “Based on true crime” is a popular sub-genre of mysteries and thrillers. How do you stand out from the crowd?

Garry: First, they’re not that long—just a bit more than novellas. I aim for a 50,000 word count spaced in 35 to 40 chapters. Not really a Patterson pace, but fast enough that an average reader can breeze through. I’d say they’re an even blend of plot-driven and character-driven. I don’t worry about that too much. As Stephen King says, “Just tell the goddamn story.” I take Elmore Leonard’s advice on dialogue, and my stuff has almost no tags. Just beats and prompts.

Sue: For non-writers, Garry means he’d rather use body movement, inner dialogue, or various other prompts to cue the reader to who’s speaking rather than “he said.” It’s a stylistic choice.

Garry: I don’t edit the language because all crooks and cops swear, but I don’t go for excessiveness or shock value. I try to be factually correct with forensic procedures. This is tricky because this game constantly evolves. I’m fortunate to have the investigative and forensic background and still have good contacts for fact-checking.

Sue: And you’re one my go-to resources. Win-win! We’ve had the plotter vs panster discussion before. I’m a die-hard plotter, as you know. But planning a novel before ever writing one word isn’t for everyone. Are you a plotter or panster? For nonwriters, a pantser is someone who writes by the seat of their pants.

Garry: I’d say I’m not as structurally anal as you, but that’s probably why you outsell me. 🙂 However, I’m conventional in the 3-Act structure format. I start out with the central story question, then make no bones that we’re dealing with dead bodies whether they’ve been found or not. Something I pay attention to is opening each chapter/scene with a hook and ending it with a cliffhanger. Some are more dramatic than others, but they’re still there.

Sue: Haha. You’re about the only person who could get away with calling me structurally anal, even though it’s true. 😉 As a Canadian, do you craft your books to fit an American or Canadian style?

Garry: I live in the nicest part of Canada from climate, scenery, etc., and don’t apologize for it. However, my market is primarily American, so I have to write that way. I live on Vancouver Island just north Seattle and the U.S border. It’s right across from the city of Vancouver, which is crazy busy and stupidly expensive. “The Island” is a big tourist destination and well-known, so it’s quite recognizable to a foreign market. Our little city has a population of only 100,000, which is the perfect size for a police force that has a specialized detective and forensic department yet doesn’t get lost in an impersonal big city.

Sue: Ha! You think that’s small? I live in a town of 1,600. We’ve got more animals walking around than people, and we like it that way. 😀 So, how do you balance the feel of Canada while still writing to an American market?

Garry: The old detective who tells the stories doesn’t get a name. Instead, he narrates in a somewhat neutral tone and the reader should quickly get past location and get into the story. Having said that—Canadians have funny speech tics, so I write in an American style to make sure it doesn’t take my main market (the U.S.) out of the story. That goes for spelling as well, and I use a proofreader from New York.

Sue: You also use an American cover designer.

Garry: We couldn’t have this talk without a plug for the amazingly talented Elle J. Rossi from Evernight Designs, could we?

Sue: Waving at you, Elle! She’s done all my thriller covers, too. Elle works with publishers and independent authors.

What was your biggest challenge in From the Shadows, writing the book or in the investigation itself?

Garry: The biggest challenge in From The Shadows (in the actual investigation) was trying to handle a police agent (Jack Masters) who was paid to infiltrate a community and locate the bodies as well as identify who was behind the J-B murders. He eventually located the car in which the bodies were hidden, which was a huge breakthrough in solving the case. However, he was an incorrigible criminal and couldn’t be trusted. (The kind of guy who’d steal Christ off the cross and come back for the nails.) The deal was that he had to actually produce evidence, not just give information, before he could get paid. But he came through with finding the bodies that otherwise likely would never have happened.

Another unusual investigation technique we used in finding the J-B family was deeply involving the media – specifically, the leading television network. Usually, the cops and the media mistrust each other. The police feel the media won’t accurately report information. They often bend it towards sensationalism and release critical holdback or key-fact evidence.

The media feel the police are always trying to deceive or manipulate them from getting to the truth. There’s a lot of substance to both views. However, in the J-B case we reached an agreement with one leading reporter who worked information to both our advantages. The reporter focused on publicly profiling one female detective as kind of a “supercop” which really paid off in obtaining a confession.

Sue: No spoiler alerts, please. I just started it this morning.

Join us tomorrow when Garry shares how he almost killed Neil Young. I’m serious! You won’t want to miss it.

In the meantime, if you’re interested in From The Shadows, you can Look Inside on Amazon.

Also available on KOBO,